Andrew Strom - [ dead link | http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/2011/01/21/prophetic-movement-in-uproar-andrew-strom/ ]01/21/2011
Earlier this week we published big chunks of Dennis Cramer's "Word for 2011" in which he basically tears into a lot of the flakey and dangerous "New Age"-type practices found in today's Prophetic movement. Well, to my great amazement, I found that the Elijah List had actually published Cramer's piece as well! And it caused such a storm that they had to remove it after just one day - for "clarification"! But then they re-published it - only slightly changed!
For those who don't know, the Elijah List is the main email List for the Prophetic movement - publishing the likes of Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, etc. It also sells mounds of their books and CD's. For the Elijah List to publish something that basically refutes all the "Spirit Travel" and "Third Heaven Visitation" stuff is simply unbelievable. It would almost be like the Pope refuting the veneration of Mary!
I don't know what the Elijah List was thinking, but I'm sure glad they did it. Now maybe there's a chance that some of their readers will get out from under those dangerous deceptions.
But I am left a bit dazed by it all - because the very ones who have been advocating "spirit travel AT WILL" and "Trance dancing" and 'Third Heaven visits AT WILL' are the very ministries that the Elijah List has been promoting all these years!
Here is what the Elijah List founder Steve Schultz wrote after they pulled the first article when it caused such a storm-
"Dear Elijah List Readers, There was a huge number of people who were unclear on a few issues with Dennis Cramer's word... The most controversial aspect was the 'AT WILL' issue. Apparently, there are some out and about who are teaching that you can transport or go to Heaven 'AT WILL'; i.e. whenever you want. This is truly not taught in Scripture. The word 'Doctrine' is another word for 'teaching'. It's an untrue teaching that anytime you want, you can go to Heaven or be transported... As soon as Dennis Cramer sends us a more in-depth explanation of the items he listed, we plan to repost my friend's word".
ANDREW AGAIN: Steve - I'm so glad you wrote this, but do you truly realize what you are saying? Don't you know that Bob Jones and Todd Bentley and Patricia King, etc, are the VERY BIGGEST promoters of all this "AT WILL" deception that you are talking about? Patricia King even has a whole movement of "Ekstasis" Trance dancing! These guys have entire reams of teaching on how to "visualize" your way into the Third Heaven 'AT WILL'. They have been promoting it for years. Surely you know this? That's why your readers are so upset. Dennis Cramer is finally exposing and rebuking this stuff as the 'New Age' heresy that it really is.
On January 15, Elijah List reposted the "re-clarified" word from Dennis Cramer on their website. It was a little softer in places, but still it said the following very clearly:
"One cannot go to Heaven like Paul or be transported physically like Phillip simply because they want to or because they feel like it (at will). Teachings like this often crossover into dangerous methods and techniques that resemble New Age, Mysticism, Spiritism or other occult manipulative practices. A Believer cannot and must not force, manipulate, or otherwise attempt to reproduce a sovereign supernatural Bible experience by merely following a method, a series of steps, or worst of all 'willing it' to happen".
In the same re-posted word, Dennis Cramer went on to say -
- "Open Heaven/Spiritual Portals = BAD DOCTRINE
- Third Heaven Experiences At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
- Going to Heaven At Will to Get Your Gifts = BAD DOCTRINE
- Transporting Physically At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
- Over-Emphasis on Angels and Specifically Arc-Angels = BAD DOCTRINE
- Going into Trances At Will = BAD DOCTRINE
- Trance Dancing = BAD DOCTRINE
- Hyper-Grace: Christians Do Not Need to Repent of Sin = BAD DOCTRINE"
Well - there goes the Prophetic movement!! Seriously - I cannot believe they posted this on the Elijah List! Steve - This is exactly all the stuff your followers have gotten into! Most of the guys you promote - these are the exact 'New Age'-type practices that they teach! Surely you know this?
So now, to finish this article, I need some "clarification" from Steve Schultz. I am very encouraged by this apparent change of heart, Steve, but I need to know if you will now CEASE forthwith any and all publication of the materials and teachings of these people - until they publicly repent and apologize for this 'New Age' heresy. And I need to know if you - Steve Schultz - will now publicly renounce the promotion of these deceptive preachers around the world. (Sorry to be so blunt about it, but we really need to hear this from you). I am so glad that you published Cramer's piece. But now we really need to know where Elijah List stands - and whether things have truly changed or not. We look forward to your reply.
And I ask everyone reading this to please forward it to your Charismatic friends. People need to know that this stuff is finally being declared as "BAD DOCTRINE" - even by the Elijah List itself. Please let everyone know, so this deception can be stopped. You would be amazed how widespread it is.
God bless you all.
Andrew Strom - [ dead link | http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/2011/01/18/prophetic-leader-rebukes-the-craziness/ ] 01/18/2011
NOTE: Dennis Cramer comes from the Prophetic/Apostolic camp, and for that reason I approach his ministry with caution. However, I certainly agree with these recent statements of his:
EXTRACTS from DENNIS CRAMER'S "WORD FOR 2011"-
What exactly is meant by the phrase "at will"?...
"At will" means a believer makes a decision, on his own, to initiate or attempt to duplicate a particular sovereign, supernatural experience. The individual wants a particular supernatural experience to happen so badly, he will do anything, (within his power), to make it happen - to force it, to duplicate or copy it, whether or not it is God's sovereign will. Rather, a believer should allow God to SOVEREIGNLY cause it to happen at His chosen time, as we see recorded in all similar bible examples.
When a believer unwisely exercises his (soulish) human will, outside of or in conflict with the sovereign will of God, (anything contrary to the written word of God, the Bible), he is producing a seemingly supernatural (source unclear) experience, from his own will or 'at will'. This is the meaning of 'at will'. 'At will' is self-will, and self-will can be sinful, and can lead to all kinds of spiritual deception and questionable practices.
The question of supernatural sovereign experiences 'at will'
Do I believe in third heaven experiences? Absolutely, I do. The Bible supports such sovereign experiences as in the example of Paul in II Cor.12. Do I believe in being physically transported? Absolutely, I do! By a sovereign act of God, Phillip was physically transported (Acts 8) from one location to another. So if it's in the Bible I believe it! I believe it all! Amen!
However, there is a HUGE difference between God willing you to have a certain sovereign bible experience, (like Paul or Phillip) as opposed to you willing it, or trying to make it happen, to duplicate it through mere human effort or merely through the exercising of your human or soulish will, in other words, 'at will'. These Bible experiences were 100% sovereign. They did not happen because these individuals willed them into existence or willed them to happen. God and God alone initiated them - He and He alone willed them. This is the very nature of a sovereign experience: God makes it happen when He wants, where he wants, and with whom He wants. Period! And they usually happened when the candidates or recipients least expected it. Why? Because these were sovereign events, not planned or initiated by man, but by God.
When discussing a sovereign experience there is a big difference between initiating versus cooperating. God INITIATES all sovereign experiences, the believer COOPERATES with them. Mix the two, crisscross them, and this can lead to some real doctrinal confusion and counter-productive measures.
It's all about God's sovereignty.
The critical issue with operating in the supernatural is: who is initiating what or who is 'willing' what? Teaching believers that by following certain steps, teachings, formulas, and/or merely exercising their own human wills, they can duplicate any sovereign supernatural experience is dangerous and unscriptural.
One cannot go to heaven like Paul or be transported physically like Phillip simply because they want to, or because they feel like it, (at will). Teachings like this often cross over into dangerous methods and techniques that resemble new age, mysticism, spiritism or other occult manipulative practices. A believer cannot and must not force, manipulate, or otherwise attempt to reproduce a sovereign supernatural Bible experience by merely following a method, a series of steps, or worst of all 'willing it' to happen.
Whether we are discussing being translated in the spirit or transported physically, or any supernatural sovereign experience we read about in the Bible, the critical difference between whether it is God or not is who 'willed' it to happen: Was it you or was it God? If you willed it to happen, it ceases to be a sovereign, God ordained, supernatural, Bible experience, and you risk experiencing a counterfeit.
It Is Time To Dust Off Your Bible!...
There is now wide-spread acceptance of "marginal to heretical" doctrines. Just 25 years ago individuals would have been thrown out of the church if caught teaching these heresies. How did this happen? Simply, we have become biblically ignorant. We have not been diligent to feed on the unadulterated Word of God. We are at best malnourished and in some cases starving to death. Biblical ignorance is on the increase in the church, even to epidemic levels! Like any form of 'lack' created by ignorance which can lead to sickness, only the proper 'intake' or in these cases, only proper biblical education can remedy it.
Warning: We live in an age of "anything goes" theology! The charismatic church is in big trouble!...
There is a growing trend towards some really bad doctrine out there. And we, the church, must put a stop to it! If we don't, no one else will! The church must begin to police herself against unorthodox (false) teaching and bizarre practices. You must reacquaint yourself with the scriptures and know your Bible.
In 40 years of serving God, I have not heard so much bad doctrine preached from so-called "bible believing" Christians - specifically charismatic Christians....
We must pray for a 'Berean Revival' in the church - a revival which returns us all to our roots - our roots in the Word of God. In the Bible, the original Bereans were believers who "searched the scriptures daily to find out whether these things be so". There is a lot of doctrine currently in circulation in the charismatic church that is highly questionable -even heretical. Each believer must begin to "search the scriptures" for himself to discover whether what he is believing is biblical or not (Acts 17:11). Stop unequivocally trusting ministers and their pulpits to always and completely preach the truth - some do, some do not. You need to search and know the scriptures for yourself. If their teachings sound too good to be true - they very well may be! Know your bible... My prophetic word to all Pastors/ Teachers for 2011 is simple: 'Preach the Word!' Know your bible.
Some examples of current doctrine circulating in the church: You must believe me that I am NOT making this stuff up!
DOCTRINES of CONCERN...
- THIRD HEAVEN EXPERIENCES At WILL...
- GOING TO HEAVEN AT WILL to GET YOUR GIFTS:... There is no biblical record of any believer having to go to heaven to get any gift. This is a totally unnecessary spiritual exercise. The three listings of gifts in Romans, I Cor., and Ephesians have all been in the church for over two thousand years. They are not in heaven, so why go there to get them? The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have each deposited Their respective gifts in the church here on earth. For 2000 years, Christians have been receiving here ON EARTH from this great deposit of gifts. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, ON EARTH, as it is in heaven". Amen!
- CLOUD of WITNESSES / DEAD SAINTS: Teaches that Christians should expect the intervention of dead saints in our daily lives. This entire deception is based on a terribly irresponsible interpretation of a single obscure verse in Hebrews 12:1. We do not need dead saints intervening in our lives. We have Jesus as our Mediator, the ONLY mediator we need between God and man (I Tim.2:5) and He is not dead. He is alive! Necromancy, that is, communication with the dead, (any dead) is forbidden in scripture.
- TRAVELING in TIME AT WILL: I have been unable to find this in the bible. Let alone doing it 'at will'.
- TRANSPORTING PHYSICALLY At WILL...
- OVER EMPHASIS on ANGELS: Yes, they are real. But an angelic visitation is a rare and precious event. Most Christians will never have an encounter with one. And it is extremely unlikely that a Christian will be visited by an archangel. Michael and Gabriel were given specific, significant, world changing tasks in the scriptures. It is likely that they have more important things to do than to drop by your house for a visit!
- GOING into TRANCES AT WILL...
- TRANCE DANCING: I have been unable to find this in the bible...
Seducing Spirits! (ITim.4:1-4) There has been loosed on the church for 2000 years a literal army of demons who sole task is to deceive the church! Unfortunately, these deceiving, seducing, spirits are enjoying some of their most successful efforts. Why? The average believer does not know his bible. The bible is absolute truth, forever settled in heaven. It is our sword of the Spirit - two edged and deadly. To be bible ignorant is to have no offensive weapon against our enemy Satan. Our ONLY defense against our enemy is a proven offense. And our proven offense against this hoard of demons is the written Word of God, the bible. Jesus wielded this same written word-sword against Satan in the wilderness with great results. So should you! I hear the church saying again, "DEVIL, IT IS WRITTEN!" It does not matter what you think, feel, sense, or even believe. It does not matter what experience you claim to have had, or how many trips to heaven you claim to have made, or how many angels you claim to know on a first name basis. The only thing that matters is what God said in His Word. Know your bible... - Dennis Cramer.
SOURCE - http://www.denniscramer.com
Mike Dyal - 09/17/2011
(David's notes in red)
After reading the posting this morning, Deceived By a False Jesus, and also listening to the 2006 broadcast on The Threshing Floor, it brought back to my remembrance some things concerning the recent outbreak of fires that we have had here in Texas.
Last week, my wife, Lisa, happened to turn on the local news telecast when it showed a map of all of the fire outbreaks and where they were occurring. The Lord quickened her and she thought to herself that this image looks exactly like the Texas Ablaze conference image that is associated with the false prophetic movement, of which we have been exposed to, that has been so prevalent here. (Where the fire of the logo was on Texas was also where the natural fires were devouring the land and buildings.)
I went to the SFWM website to get an image of the Texas Ablaze emblem and I listened to the prophecy from February 2011 by Chuck Pierce on the right side of their homepage. I know he is associated with this movement. (Here are portions of it: He prophesied that there will be a drop on BasTROP. ... Go there and say it ... Say it in every corner ... As a sign of change to this nation ... Father, thank you for the drop that will fall on Bastrop. [Here he spoke of the anointing coming.]... It is going to be a lot of heat that is coming ... This fire was not an anointing or blessing but a curse upon the land, just as the false revival movement is.)
That same day, I was at my office meditating on the Lord and thinking about all of these fires when I asked the Lord to give me a word concerning this. I shut my eyes, spun and flipped my Bible around, opened it up, put my finger down and it landed directly on Jeremiah 9:25, which says: Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised...
I then looked directly above this verse to the two preceding verses of which I had previously underlined: (23) Thus says the LORD: "Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, Let not the mighty man glory in his might, Nor let the rich man glory in his riches; (24) But let him who glories glory in this, That he understands and knows Me, That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight", says the LORD.
I thought, isn't this something, because most of the "circumcised" today don't believe that when events such as this happen, that it is judgment from God. Very few understand the sovereignty of God. It is totally explained away or blamed on something when many scriptures say just the opposite, such as: (Heb.10:26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
There were many fires going on but the one that was making the most headlines was the one in Bastrop, Texas because of all of the homes it consumed. So I asked the Lord what was so significant about Bastrop and was there any meaning to this, when He led me to Wikipedia to research it a little. I discovered that the town was named after a man named Baron de Bastrop who was an influential person who helped the colonization of Texas. Interestingly enough, this was not his real name. His real name was Felipe Enrique Neri, but people believed his false identity and he engaged in many land deals where he made a fortune but later went broke. His true identity was not revealed until some time after his death.
I believe God is saying that the threshing floor of judgment is coming to separate the wheat from the tares. He said to let them grow together until the harvest. There are many with false identities who have infiltrated the church and others who need to have the wood, hay and stubble burned up for purification purposes. This is the reason He is bringing us to this time and it will be on the "circumcised" and "uncircumcised". Tribulation was designed to separate a people who are holy and sanctified!
Unfortunately, the false prophetic movement has not gone away. This is a dangerous deception that needs to be exposed for what it is -- false signs and lying wonders. I praise the Lord that by His grace He revealed this to us. Signs and wonders don't testify of truth; His Word does! Get God's Word in you and don't be moved by what you see. Watch the following clip and tell me how this edifies Jesus! Take note of the mantra repeated over and over calling forth for "fire".
Richard Smith - 1994
This vision emerged with an unusually vivid degree of clarity on Thursday morning the 29th September, 1994, just before I was about to go out and do some studying.
Following a period of pouring out my distressed feelings about the condition of the Church to Jesus, who is our heavenly Advocate, I saw ahead of me a large billowing black cloud which carried lots of soot and other pollutants. Its sulphurous stench revealed that here was no natural cloud, but rather it was the type of acid cloud which arises from the explosion of some chemical plant or oil installation. Blown by its own momentum, the acid cloud was rapidly heading towards a low waterless desert plain which lay beneath some rocky mountains. Filling the plain were all types of people whom I under-stood represented the Christian population of England. Most were indigenous white Anglo-Saxons, but there were members of various ethnic minorities as well. These stood for the immigrant population in England.
On closer inspection, I could see that this vast assembly was divided into four main groups. The first of these was the one that was nearest to the cloud and was obviously coming under its influence. This particular group can be known as the intoxicated. Behind them, closely intermingled together, were the second and third groups - these can be known as the fearful and the angry. Still further behind at a little distance was a smaller group who will be known as the prepared. However, one fact was obvious - the acid cloud was going to cover all four groups regardless of whether they wanted it to or not.
It was at this point that I perceived that the cloud was blowing in from the Westerly direction.
In response to this cloud, the first group were laughing, dancing and singing. A few of their members were lying prostrate and making all kinds of animal noises. Some were so deliriously happy that they actually formed a dance line, which - while they were dancing the conga - snaked its way into the cloud. With a start, I realised their mistake. Already intoxicated by invisible fumes emanating from the front of the cloud, this group were wrongly assuming that the polluted cloud was a refreshing rain cloud that represented God's presence. They failed to see what its true nature was.
The second group of Christians saw what the cloud consisted of, but then panicked. Some ran away and tripped over, knocking themselves out, while others stood there, frozen to the ground, looking in two directions at once. Like the first group, they too were swallowed up by the cloud. Their fundamental mistake was to panic in the face of evil.
Whilst this was happening, the third group of Christians (who also saw that the cloud was a menace) stood before it shaking their fists and making all kinds of angry noises. Some were kicking at it with their feet. Like the previous two groups, they were clad in light, flimsy summer clothing. Their mistake was to try to fight the cloud in their own strength. Consequently, they too were swallowed up. Moreover, as the cloud ate up each of the three previous groups, there was silence, followed by earpiercing howls of pain, succeeded by more silence - which was broken only by the odd intermittent moan or throaty gurgle which very much reminded me of a First World War gas attack.
However, the fourth group of Christians were getting ready to deal with the threat posed by this cloud. With urgent haste, they were donning anti-chemical suits of clothing, clamping on gas masks and putting on strong safety helmets which had a bright light, like a miner's lamp, attached to it. Above the lamp (which represent-ed the light of the Holy Spirit) near the top of the helmet was a bright red spot. At once I discerned that this symbolised the Blood of Jesus Christ. It was His mark on this group.
Strapped to their sides were white first-aid cases with red crosses on them. These carried a wide assortment of medical aids to help those Christians who had been burned by the cloud. In their right hands they carried strong transparent riot shields, while in their left hands they carried various types of weaponry. These were obviously designed to fight the various kinds of principalities which inhabit the cloud.
Suddenly, at God's own timing, they formed a line, linked shields and marched at an orderly pace into the cloud. They were obviously directed by the Lord to do this. It was also clear that they were called to work very closely together. (Note; later, Richard was shown that the strategy of this group would be to advance at the Lord's command, fight strenuously, rescue and minister to some of the wounded; then stand their ground awaiting the next call for advance).
BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT
Somewhat taken aback by the implications of this vision, I then used my mind to apply 1 Jn 4:1-3. In blunt Yorkshire tones, I said "Do you, the spirit who has brought this picture so vividly to mind, boldly confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh"? "Yes, I boldly confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh". "Fine, what do you say about the Blood He shed on the Cross?" "Through the Blood there is forgiveness of sin. It protected the Israelites from My judgment on the Egyptian firstborn". "Good. Now let's take counsel together and have some intelligent discussion. Without repeating all the details that were revealed earlier, would you please, Abba Father, send your Holy Spirit to complete the interpretation of this vision?"
Still utterly in control of what was happening, I then slowly took stock of what the Holy Spirit was saying. While creating a piercing clarity of mind that served to heighten my intellectual faculties, the Holy Spirit gave me the following interpretation:
1) The acid cloud not only represented what is currently known as the Toronto Phenomenon, it also represents all that will come out of that occurrence. The Toronto Phenomenon is so to speak only the front edge of the cloud. It is paving a way for even more extreme manifestations of the evil one. In short, "Toronto" can be seen as a beginning rather than an end.
2) Being blown by its own momentum indicates that within the cloud there is only what can be described as a hostile alien spirit. It is the head spirit of many other spirits which inhabit the cloud. More-over, this alien spirit has been given permission by God to try the loyalties of Christians in this country. Through a process of sharp division, which will cause many wounds, it will become really clear who in the Church is standing by Jesus and who is not. However, some of those who belong to the first three groups will be given a few further chances to repent. For a little while, the opportunity to get back into a right relationship with God will exist.
3) The flat waterless desert plain represents English Society which is bereft of the Holy Spirit. It may also have some bearing on other places within the British Isles - even though it is England which is primarily represented.
Another point to mention is that if the Lord's people had been on top of the rocky mountains, (which represents nearness to God's presence) then they would have escaped the influence of the acid cloud. Their position on the desert plain has left them desperately vulnerable to the corrosive effects. In other words, being in the place where Jesus Christ doesn't want them to be has stripped the Church of many spiritual defences. Far from putting on the armour of God, it is wearing loose, light summer clothes. Furthermore, being in the desert place has caused many Christians to seek to assuage their thirst from the wrong spiritual sources. That is one reason why the first group greeted the cloud with such enthusiasm. It seemed to offer an easy way to meet their needs.
4) As was stated earlier, the people in the plain were Christians -mainly charismatic/evangelical Christians, but there were also a fair number of representatives from the established denominations as well. They were conspicuous for their clerical collars, long robes and self-important expressions on their faces. It was clear that this cloud is going to have a very widespread effect.
5) As was clearly seen in the vision itself, the four groups rep-resented four possible reactions to the acid cloud. Only the last was appropriate to the situation in hand.
In particular, those who stood frozen to the ground looking in two directions, stood for Christian leaders who were trying to find expedient diplomatic solutions to what was an impossible situation. Not surprisingly, most of their supporters were quickly deserting them - leaving them alone to be swallowed up by the cloud. At this juncture, I believe the Holy Spirit is clearly saying "beware of man-made expedients in dealing with the Toronto Phenomenon". What the Church faces here is primarily a spiritual, not cultural or psychological problem. Spiritual weapons will be needed to deal with it.
6) The role of the fourth group, which was the only one really doing God's will, was two-fold. Firstly it has to use the spiritual weapons given it to attack the principalities which were in the cloud. Secondly, it had to help restore Christians from the previous three groups who had been injured by it. Regrettably, some Christians they will have to bypass, because they will either refuse treatment or be in such a wild state that it will be impossible to deal with them.
By no means will all Christians survive the passing of the cloud. Some will forsake their faith, while others will suffer from perm-anent physical and mental breakdowns. A few will even lose their very lives there.
I began to see that the acid cloud was also the cloud of God's judgment, that will have to pass over the Church until evil is forcibly removed from it. Only after the acid cloud has done its work will the Church be pure enough to receive the cloud of God's presence. This cloud will in turn bring further cleansing and much-needed revival. However, the time for this second cloud to pass over is not yet. Any hopes of immediate revival are therefore premature. This means that taken as a whole, the Toronto Phenomenon does not represent a time of refreshing, rather it represents what is perhaps the first installment of a VERY severe judgment on the churches in this country.
In a very real sense, the mass of God's people are being handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. Only those who are faithful to the Lord in all things will be exempt from this judgment - even though they may be distressed by its consequences. For members of the fourth group, there is the challenge to stand together and not act as a group of disparate individuals.
In closing, I believe the Holy Spirit is challenging you who read this document to decide which groups you belong to - is it to be the intoxicated, the fearful, the angry or the prepared? Great evil is coming upon many churches in this country - there exists only a little time to make this decision.